I went ahead a created a separate topic specifically for the contoured sloper, or the armhole and waist darted sloper.  I've cut Jaeng's and Kay's posts in the basic sloper discussion and pasted them here.  I've also cut-and-pasted some pertinent information here from other discussions pertaining to the contoured sloper.  I hope you all find this convenient.  If not, please let me know.

posted by Jaeng:

Sorry, I have to show my underarm, the problem area...

 

posted by Kay:

I don't know Jaeng - it does not look bad to me at all!  Some possibilities to improve (though I am not honestly sure about any of them):

- try lowering the front neck a tiny bit at CF, tapering to nothing at shoulder seam - it looks like it is a bit high on you i.e. it's hitting the base of your neck.  I have this problem with jewel necks feeling like they are choking me, and lowering the neck 1cm or so really helps.

- from the front (but not the side or back views) it looks like perhaps your shoulders are a bit squarer than the sloper.  Try raising the shoulder up a very small amount.  This may help the sloper settle down on your shoulders rather than floating at your neckline which I think is what you are describing

- if you think the armscye is too low raising the shoulder point would make this more so, but I don't see any reason why you cannot simply raise the armscye up to a point where you are comfortable if you generally like a high armscye.   Bear in mind that the sloper isn't a garment - various drafts may lower (or possibly raise) the armscye for specific styles.  

Here's a link to the discussion titled, Misses Stylebook Slopers that was started last year.  Tamyu gave us some helpful information there about the differences between the slopers.  Also, Kay posted pictures of her contoured sloper that should be revisited.

Jaeng,

Do you have the pattern for the contoured sloper which includes bust sizes 77 through 104 cm?  It was last included in MSB145.  It's also included in the Pattern Making book by Kasai Fujino, ISBN 4-579-11016-1.

As I said earlier, it may not be best for you to draft a sloper one or two sizes smaller than your bust size, since the sloper you currently have wants to float when worn—I missed this fact.  If you have the contoured sloper pattern, it may be easier or faster for you to copy the front sloper for bust size 83 but tapering to size 80 when approaching the AH dart, shoulders and neckline.

It’s a curious thing to me that, when the bust size gets smaller, the pattern shortens the CB-CF-AH lengths from above the BL, but also the pattern adds CB-CF lengths from below the BL towards the WL.  I really think that your sloper’s WL is too low.  Pictures 1 and 3 show me that your sloper’s WL moved with your torso's curves.  Your sloper’s WL should sit right above your true WL.  If you have the pattern, you should copy the WL between sizes 83 and 89.

As I said earlier, your sloper looks roomy to me.  The roominess is much more on the back than it is on the front.  It’s as if you measure a size 83 at the front and a size 80 at the back.  I don’t know of the best way to approach this roominess on the back of your sloper.  I hesitate to tell you to take it in at CB, because that would move the shoulder and waist darts, which I think, are already where they should be.  Maybe—and that’s a big maybe—you should copy a size 80 for your back, leaving ample side seam SAS just in case.

Diana

I ordered Pattern Making book by Kasai Fujino, ISBN 4-579-11016-1
and it just arrived today!

And yes I have the ready to use sloper from issue 145.
I will go to my sewing room and take photos of me wearing
size 80 bust right now.

And also will what you suggested.

Could it be that I'm about 167 cm tall but only have A cup and

that mess up lots of thing?

Jaeng, I see that you are posting at the same time that I am.  So my two most recent posts do not reflect the last two that you posted just now.

Sorry, I forgot to mark the apex again.

I feel like my shoulders are not as wide as sloper's.

Size 83 now

Done!

I thought making slopers is a piece of cake, just a few mins. here and there but it kind of took me all day.

Diana,

Thank you so much for taking time on my fitting. I'm so glad to own

a sloper that fit me.  I know that I can't fix the ploblems well even after you

guys helped me reading the signs so I was aiming to get the sloper that fit me

all around with minimal alterations that why I made so many

of them!  I checked fitted shirt drfting from  Mrs.Stylebook and found that

they don't add any more ease so I better leave the ease on slope as is and

the close fitted clothes that I wear is shirt/blouse.

Oh, I'm sooooo happy. 

Thank you thank you again,

Jaeng

Hi Diana,

I did not add seam allowance on AH, neckline and hem.

My kid took the first 3 photos for me so it was not so good. I tried

to do myself and it even worse. Later on my husband

came home from the trip, so the later photos are better.

I will check the back point again. I'm so happy that

everything fit just right. I'm sewing curtains today, hate it. I can't wait to make

clothes from this sloper! I have been using wrong size forever.

Thank you for your kindness.

Hmmm, I logged in under admin in my computer, which has has all the McAfee settings to adult, and I still cannot see your first two pictures.

So I'm commenting only on the last two pictures... which may not be sufficient.

What I see that looks okay:

• the BL and BP line
• the back AH line
• shoulder points

It doesn't look like that there's too much room at the bust but that there's too much room right above the bust, right at the upper chest area.

I can't tell if the neckline sits where it should be.  And I can't tell if the WL is too high even if half a cm at that.  The WL should sit above the belly button.  But wherever you decide the WL should be, always take that into account whenever you draft a pattern.

I can't tell, from the last two pictures, if there's gaping at the back AH: very common problem.  It seems that there's no gaping at the back AH but there's gaping at the front AH right above the AH dart.

There front AH is also too low right at the dart area.

It feels like the whole shoulder area is too big, both in front and back, and there are some weird effects on the shoulder.  I tissue fitted it to my dummy and had to add about 3cm to the front shoulder piece and flatten the shoulders,but it doesn't seem right.  I also moved up the armsyce and moved the shoulder seam further in, since it wasn't over my actual shoulder.  My bust is about a cm lower than the BL.  Waist seam might be .5cm too high, not much. 

From what you said above, it seems that the sloper is floating right above your shoulders, or that there's too much ease right above your shoulders.

Okay.  Now that I've said as much as I can about the problems that I can see, here's my humble opinion on how to fix your sloper.

• Take in the AH dart at the upper leg, a little bit at a time.
• Smooth out excess room towards the front shoulder seam, leaving just enough room for comfort ease.  You should be able to stick your pinky finger right underneath the shoulder point.  There should be the same amount of ease at the shoulder neck point.
• Add about a cm or a little more at the AH dart area and taper to zero towards the underarm edge and shoulder point.
• If your BP is lower than the BL, then you should adjust the point of your AH dart accordingly.  This will mean that your BL will become your underarm level instead.  You don't want your underarm level to be at the same level as your adjusted BP.

These are just a few suggestions on where to start fixing your sloper.  Overall, your sloper looks good and that the only problem is that there's too much ease at the shoulders.  Fixing this should remove the excess ease above the bust, too.  After you've finished adjusting where you see necessary, please follow up with pictures!

If you decide to start over (yeah, I know . . . go ahead and groan) with a new sloper with the changes, don't forget to staystitch the AH and neckline areas, clipping the SAS close to the stitching line.

 

 

What great comments, thank you very much.  I'll work on it and let you know.  BTW the picture thing seemed to have to do with adding alt text -- I re-added the pix without the alt text and they showed up (I know it wasn't you because the same thing was happening on my monitor).

Elizabeth

You're sloper looks a whole lot better!  Congratulations.

I think that the problem with the side seam being slightly angled and the diagonal pulls on the front are the same problem.  Perhaps the solution is to give a little more ease on the back side seam, tapering to zero towards the bottom of the armhole?  This might help straighten the side seams and remove the diagonal pulls.

With the WL being too high at the back, the simple solution I think is to just redraw a new WL parallel to the floor.

Be careful when pinching in the CB seam.  The danger is moving the waist darts away from where they ought to be.  But again, since this procedure did wonders for you, you can always shift the back wasit darts back to where they are supposed to be on the final pattern.

Elizabeth, you're well on your way to drafting an MSB pattern!  I'm so excited for you!  BTW, I'm thinking of starting an August or September Capsule & Sew Along over at SG.  It's not a contest like SWAP.  I already got a go-ahead from one of the mods there, so I hope there'll be others who will be interested in joining me!  It'll get lonely here with three kids and a newborn.  I doubt I can just get up and go anywhere.

Congratulations, again!

You know I deepened the darts a little at the waist because it seemed too loose, maybe I didn't do it evenly and that's the reason for the pulls.

That could very well be, Elizabeth.  The contoured sloper on this model

does not look like it's fitted to her curves.  And she's supposed to be the curvy model.

I hadn't thought of the problem with moving the waist darts - it's a good suggestion to move them back but then I have to re-sew and re-fit the sloper, don't I (horror)? And are there implications for the back shoulder dart too?  I'm reluctant to mess with something that's working.

Yes, there are implications for the back shoulder darts too.  But no worries.  Just keep it mind that moving the CB seam might have moved your back waist and back shoulder darts to a position that might mess up a pattern's design . . . like princess seams, etc.  If the darts feel good where they are, then leave them alone.  Don't listen to me!  I'm just a chatter box and a hopeless control-freak who happens to love to talk sewing and drafting and all things Japanese couture.

The contoured sloper hangs straight up and down anyway from the BL, if the waist darts are not taken in.  How much you take in these waist darts is to your preference.  But the side seams, CB seam and CF seam do have to be perpendicular to the floor.  BL, WL and underarm level do have to be parallel to the floor.  All these "do-have-to-bes" have to do with keeping the grain in tact.

Diana

Unfortunately, i can't show any pictures for help because i'm posting this from the library and it won't let me access any photo hosting sites. 

 I made the contoured sloper and it fits me with a lot more ease than i expected even though I was very careful in taking my bust measurement.  How much ease should i expect? 

 Other than that the only other problem that i can see is that the shoulder seams do not lay flat, but stand up like little wings, with about a centimenter gap at the end away from the neck.  The neck seems to fit me fine.  I suppose this is because my shoulders are more rounded/ slopey/ slouchy than the pattern is drafted for?  How would i fix this?  Just draw the shoulder seam with more of a slope?  Would this affect anything else in the sloper that i should know about? 

Any advice you can provide would be helpful, i know it's difficult without the pictures... Thanks in advance!

I thought I'd draft the Bunka Seijinjoshi sloper in the CAD (Pattern Editor) portion of Patternmaster Boutique, and compare that with what happens when PMB is left to devise a sloper with armscye dart and d waist darts front and back.

Unfortunately, while impatiently clicking away at my slow old computer, I lost ALL my unbacked up vector files...so this the only image I have of the Bunka Seijinjoshi sloper.

First off, the PMB sloper naturally drafted much, much, much faster than drawing the Bunka Seijinhoshi sloper! That said, it was faster doing a simple draft like the Bunka one in Pattern Editor than on paper, because I could use software tools to copy or mirror objects or specify dimensions very easily. If you have any kind of CAD tools it would be worth using them.

My PMB sloper is a good fit, but people often find that they have to re-take critical measurements to get everything lining up beautifully. Conversely, once you've done that, it's nothing to add or subtract ease, move darts here or there etc.

The only change I made to the PMB sloper is my usual alteration to move some of the back fullness round to the tummy, where I am afraid it actually is.

The Bunka Seijinjoshi sloper is supposed to be for bust sizes from 77 - 104 cms. My bust is quite a bit bigger than that, so I thought there would be humongous distortions in the sloper, as there are some fixed quantity measurements in there. 

Actually the two drafts were fairly similar.

Bunka - drafting front and back together means that the armhole is a neat curve right from the start. Whether or not that is a good fit is another question.

I usually lower the bust point...er...quite a bit! The Bunka sloper was much closer to reality there than anticipated.

The Bunka sloper shoulders don't match perfectly when front and back are overlayed. That's often true for a first-draft of a PMB sloper too, but my PMB sloper is a TNT while the Bunka is my first draft.

The Bunka location of drafts means that the sideseams are cut pretty close to straight grain, and fitting is in the waist darts. With PMB, you can change the dart uptake, but left to its own devices, quite a bit of fitting is on the sideseams. I don't know which is better...may depend a lot on the garment style.

And in any case, the Bunka sloper is definitely a sloper, while the PMB is more of a fitting garment (I took ease out to make it easier to compare).

 

Here are some pix...sorry for deterioration in image in some of them.

Blues are PMB, pinks/oranges are Bunka. 

 

 

 

 

...and the PMB "Bunka style" sloper image at right, compared with the Bunka Seijin joshi sloper image at left

 

Oops, sorry, I stuffed up and re-did this "Bunka style" sloper, and forgot to put the back shoulder dart in.

PMB Bunka style shoulder length is shorter, mostly because I set it that way, whereas Bunka Seijinjoshi uses a formula rather than actual measurement to get the shoulder length. 

 

PS again...Bunka sloper only goes to waist, PMB sloper goes to high hip, so the bodice looks longer but actually isn't (since I used the same CB measurement for both slopers (CF measurements are taken differently for PMB and for Bunka). 

I have to admit, there may be something funny (i.e. a MISTAKE on my part in the back shoulder draft for the Bunka Seijin joshi draft).

 Also, I am not entirely convinced by that whacking great dart on the side back...did I miscalculate??? I used a chart in MSB 154, which was useful, but some of the  instructions didn't make it through my skull intact.

 I did overlay the two complete drafts, but the resulting image isn't very clear in Paint. I was surprised that they matched up remarkably well, though.

 The thing that interests me the most is that the PMB system is based on measurements - a certain number of "must have" measurements", plus several more that you can either enter manually, or have the program calculate for you (which it usually does pretty accurately).

 The Bunka sloper, on the other hand, has a really minimal set of measurments, with lots of manual calculations (unless you use a quick reference chart) based on those measurements. I found it interesting that the Bunka extrapolations were so good. What that says to me is that it wouldn't take much for Bunka to produce their own computerized drafting software...

Whether it's more hassle to do lots of measurement or lots of calculation it's hard to say, but getting lots of accurate measurements from another person can certainly be a hassle. On the other hand, I wonder whether or not you do end up taking actual shoulder and neck measurements to produce a good final sloper for the Bunka system.

 The shoulder slope with the Bunka Seijin-joshi sloper seemed too steep for me, and I wonder if it's a bit too steep for most people?

 I lost my CAD drawing , but will try to re-draft it and then use it to draft an actual style and compare that with the same style drafted in PMB. 

 It would be nice to compare an Aldrich draft too, but I misplaced my book after I started using PMB... 

A closer look makes me think that the big back dart is OK.

Information on drafting the back shoulder was a bit scattered throughout the instruction pages, and I am not confident I got everything right...looks as if I've made it a bit long, though that could be the shoulder dart uptake. The "funny" is just one of those laugh or cry choices, I think...some of those twiddles just didn't give me a clear idea of WHAT original dimension was being used.

 I will make up the slopers, but it could be a 2-month project...sewing area is all packed up for summer guests, so I am only sewing items already cut out and ready to sew,  or playing around drafting on the computer!! And then costumes and school bazaar items beckon.

 Reading through the rest of the instructions (after doing the drafting, naturally), I see a comment about neck/shoulder area being too big on women with larger busts (and, er, tummies). The Japanese text refers to those of us who are PERMITTED to be bigger in the bust, because we are "middle aged or beyond", but I imagine that many buxom western women will have the same problems (and it seems that women with big busts have this trouble with western commercial patterns too).

There are some pointers on "fixing" the sloper for larger busts, which I could put into English if not already covered by previous posters? One point was that , as in Elizabeth's draft, there tended to be too much length in the shoulder-bust area, even if not in the bust-waist area. And also, shoulder slope would end up too long.

 My sewn slopers won't be a perfectly neutral comparison, as the PMB sloper inevitably now reflects my preferences (especially in the shoulder area - I like a higher-set sleeve for more movement). Overlapping the two slopers gives me the impression that the Bunka sloper will work pretty  much OK, barring some adjustment in shoulder area (but again, I'm older and fatter, and need to consider rounding back and forward shoulders etc.) Again, it worked better than I thought it would on a fat figure!